Just As Nature Intended | High-Fat Diet | Vinnie Tortorich


This is Dr. Jack Wolfson the paleo cardiologist,
and welcome to another episode of the Healthy Heart Show. Today I am excited to have Vinnie Tortorich
on my podcast. Vinnie has interviewed me for his, and we
had such a great time and we’re so in alignment, I couldn’t wait to get him onto my show. Now, Vinnie is the celebrity trainer, he wrote
a book called Fitness Confidential a few years ago. It’s done so well on Amazon, so many phenomenal
reviews, and Vinnie is well known as the angriest trainer, so he exposes the nasty underbelly
of the fitness industry, while getting you in the best shape of your life. He’s been at this for over 20 years, his podcast
is not to be missed. He’s got over 1000 episodes that are on there,
and he’s interviewed the best of the best. So, make sure you check out a copy of his
book, Fitness Confidential and Vinnie will tell us more about where to find him, and
what he’s doing and all about his podcast. So, Vinnie, welcome to the show. Jack, thanks for having me man, this is great. I’m glad you’re doing a podcast now, because
you were one of those guests when I had you on my show, where you’re saying, this guy
needs to do more of this. At the time, I didn’t even think to say to
you, “Hey maybe you should start your own podcast, because we need this information
out there.”. So, thank you for doing this. No, you got it, it’s a pleasure. I think, really, the healthcare revolution
is on, it’s just so many people are getting into health and wellness, and they’re getting
away from their medical doctors and I know that’s something you’re so passionate about. It’s like hey, let’s just actually prevent
things before we need to reach out to the medical doctor, before we get cancer, before
we get heart disease. So, maybe tell us a little bit about your
back story and how you got to where you are now. Yeah, you know I walked into a gym when I
was eight years old. I’m going to be 56 next week and I feel a
lifetime of me starting off, working out, that whole thing. When I went to college, I went to Tulane University
on a football scholarship. I had to study for something, and Tulane was
well known for being a medical university. Most of the classes are geared to either medicine
or law. I looked around and went, the world does not
need another lawyer. Went to get an education degree, and ended
up getting one in nutrition and exercise physiology. What do you do with that? You leave college and you’re nothing but a
glorified PE teacher. Where do I take this? I could go teach a health class. That’s exactly what I did, at first. A very prestigious school in New Orleans,
the Newman School, hired me, not as a PE teacher, but as a strength and conditioning coach. I got to work with a couple of guys that ended
up becoming Superbowl MVPs, the Manning kids were there when I was there. At some point, you mentioned I’ve been in
this business for 20 years, I started thinking about it, it’s like, wow, it’s getting closer
to 40 years. It’s 37 years I’ve been doing this. Along the way, early on, I started figuring
out that everything I was taught in college was just wrong. Everything you learn in nutrition, everything,
by the way, all the clues were there the whole time. I tell this story all the time, Jack. A professor had said to us, “Your body’s preferred
method for burning fuel is to macro nutrient fat.”. So, I wrote that down. I wrote down everything a professor said. A couple of weeks later, the same professor
was talking about aerobic activity and how your body needs sugar to burn, fat’s burning
sugar if you’re doing anything, riding a bike, or just mowing the lawn. Any of this stuff. I raised my hand and said, “Hey, I have it
here on August 28 that you said the body’s preferred fuel was fat.”. He goes, “Yeah, forget that.”. I went, “Yeah, but you said… Which will be on the test? Which one should I put down on the test that
won’t be wrong?”. He goes, “Well, your body uses fat, it’s a
slow burning fuel, but if you need readily available energy, you get that from sugar.”. That was my first clue that, wait a minute,
he did say fat, and now he’s saying sugar. I’m not really sure where the truth lies,
right? Working for people in a lab and all that kind
of stuff, with exercise physiology, you notice when you get someone into their aerobic mode,
you have 4 aerobic modes, up to 69%, 70-79, 80-89, so on and so forth. You could see how fast they’re burning through
their blood glycogen. We would take them all the way up to a bonk. The question became, how do we not have them
bonk? How can some people, like Forrest Gump, even
though that wasn’t around back then, could just seem to run forever? What are those people doing that are different? What are the Masai tribes doing, what are
the Inuits doing? How are they doing this stuff, if you need
all this sugar? There were clues all along the way, but I
wasn’t willing to switch, until I moved to Los Angeles and started working with celebrities. That’s when, they would say, “You need to
take this woman from a size 4 to a size 2.”, or “This woman just had a baby and she has
to walk the red carpet. You need to get weight off her.”. I would just pull people off of carbohydrates. It works like a charm, but then they get real
bitchy and real aggravated, because you’ve taken all of their sugar away. I would say, “Have a little protein, have
a little protein.”. I was in med school. Then, I started figuring out, if you gave
them a little butter, that seem to save them. I used the same method for myself. One night I was really hungry, and because
I used to model back then, too, I had to be really thin for a shoot. I went, just a little butter in my mouth,
that can’t hurt. All of a sudden, I felt better. If I had to go for a run, I’d put a little
butter in my mouth and go for a run. It was just accidental, figuring this stuff
out. Back then, it was hard to find anything…Stephen
Phinney was about the only guy writing anything, Jeff Volek was writing stuff back then. We’re talking the early ’90s. There was no computer, no google, no nothing. You had to find stuff, and go figure stuff
out. There were just clues everywhere. I would read about ketogenic diets, and you
would have to go read and find microfiche in libraries. When you’re me, and you’re a nerd, and you
don’t have many friends, you just go do that, because you don’t have a date on Saturday
night. I was always trying to figure out some magic
potion, because I was riding bikes, and I was doing these long distances, and I was
going 3,4,500 miles on a bike. I was looking for that magic bullet. How do I sustain energy? It wasn’t an overnight thing. I didn’t mean to go off on a tangent on your
first question, but I did. That’s all good. Clearly, you found that, as you were supplementing
these models, and you were putting them on a high fat diet. When you say high fat, what kind of stuff
did you recommend then? Obviously, has it changed to what you recommend
now, if you were speaking to one of these supermodels, trying to get from a 4 into a
2? How would you do it? It’s not that much different. Back then, like I said, butter was a main
thing. I read that, back in the ’30s or ’40s, I read
somewhere, when babies had seizures, they would put them on ketogenic diet. I would go, “How would they do that? Would they just give them fat from a cow,
or what would they do?”. They were giving them heavy whipping cream,
so I would go out and try to find heavy whipping cream in LA, which is almost impossible, because
everybody was on skim milk. I would find mascarpone cheese and crème
fraiche, that kind of stuff. I went to the dairy side of things. By the way, I was scared of cholesterol back
then, because there was no one talking about the cholesterol part of it. I was skeptical about sending clients in that
direction, but the one thing I kept noticing back in those days, was I could wake up in
the morning and have a breakfast cereal, and feel crappy within an hour. Or, if I ate bacon, I felt like I could run
a marathon. People would say to me, “Yeah, that’s because
of nitrites and nitrates in there,”, and I’m like, I don’t know. There’s something else going on here. I feel like I’m shot out of a cannon when
I eat this. It’s so funny, Vinnie, you mention that as
far as, that’s one of the healthy things about bacon, is the fact it’s high in nitrates,
nitrites, which are then converted into nitric oxide, with is a vasodilator and fantastic
for blood pressure, circulation, and for exercise, stamina, recovery, erectile issues… Who would have thought bacon was so good? You’re saying fry up the bacon, if you need
a little extra, fry it up in butter. It’s funny how that works. When you think about the whole history of
any of it, Dr. Kellogg, who was a Seventh Day Adventist, he didn’t believe in sex, other
than for procreation, and he wasn’t sure how he really felt about that. Masturbation was a definite no-no. No way, no how. They figured out the way to make people not
want to have erections was to eat corn flakes, what animals are supposed to eat. That’s what they’re primed to do. That’s interesting! Great factoid! By the way, I don’t know if you know this
Jack, but I was funded to do a movie, and the movie is going to be out early in 2019. It’s called, “Fat: A Documentary”. I have people talking about that in the movie. I’m talking about it, actually, that’s part
of my thing, talking about Dr. Kellogg, and what was going on in the 1860s, that is still
carrying on today, that’s making us more heart unhealthy by the day. We’ll put all that in the show notes, as a
reminder for everybody to check out that documentary. There’s a lot of literature, I wouldn’t say
I’ve pigeon holed myself as the paleo cardiologist, it’s all about living the lifestyle as much
as we can, of our ancestors. The paleo person wasn’t going after dairy,
and wasn’t eating another animal’s milk, yet at the same time, the literature is the literature,
and the literature really says that those dairy eaters tend to do very well. Butter increases HDL number and HDL function,
which may be the holy grail, so I like to hear this butter story. Of course, me personally, I always go for
raw dairy whenever possible. The fact that they’ve gotten that out of our
lives is an absolute travesty, but you can find it, you can get it, raw dairy, raw butter,
raw cream, just like nature would have intended. It’s funny, we were traveling. We travel a lot to go do shows, and everything
else. We were up in Seattle this weekend. We found some heavy cream not far away from
our hotel room. We got back and I put some in my coffee the
next morning. I tasted it, and went, “Ugh”, and I realized
I had either carrageenan, or one of the other thickeners that they put in there now. The stuff that we drink at home, we always
have the heavy cream. I get it, the good heavy cream, without any
thickeners, it’s hard to find. You pay a lot for it, and not everyone can
afford it, but I always tell people, do the best you can when it comes to raw butter,
raw milk, raw everything. As you know, they’re so calorie dense, that
a little bit of that stuff goes a long way, right? If you put just a tablespoon into your coffee,
that could really satiate you for several hours. People always ask me, “How much do you put
in your coffee?”. It makes me sound racist, but I’ll say, “Make
it look like Dwayne the Rock Johnson in color. If it starts to look like Edgar Winter, then
you probably went too far.”. I know where you’re going with that. I wouldn’t say that to Dwayne Johnson personally,
but if I do, I’ll tell him I heard it from you. Tell me some strategies- you travel a lot,
you speak a lot, you’re all over. How do you stay healthy, how do you eat healthy
while you’re traveling? People ask me that. They asked me that in Seattle this week. I hear people all the time say, “Well, I travel
a lot. It’s hard to stay healthy.”. Even if you’re in a third world country, you
can always find things to eat, and we’re never really in third world countries. I’m either in Europe, or somewhere in the
United States, or sometimes in Central America. Sometimes, it’s Canada. It doesn’t seem that difficult to stay on
the straight and narrow. They’ll say, “What did you have when you were
on the plane?”. If I’m going to Europe from LA, and I know
I’m going to be on a plane for 10 or 11 hours, I’m going to bring things like pili nuts,
or macadamia nuts, because they travel well. I may also bring a couple of hard boiled eggs
in a zip lock. If you’re in a small plane going cross country,
you pull an egg out the zip lock, it’s going to smell pretty bad. I always walk to the back of those wide bodies,
and pull it out. Usually, the people that work on a plane,
they’re sitting back there, and they don’t mind talking to you for a minute while you
eat an egg. I even do a thing, where I’ll peel it before
I leave home, and I throw salt in the zip lock bag, too, so that I don’t have to do
any of that, just pull it out, eat it, it’s gone in a second. There are a lot of easy things you can do
when you travel. Not to mention, those long international flights,
usually you can ask them for cheese. I don’t like to fly first class because it’s
so god awful expensive. First class has all the good stuff. If you’re nice to the person that’s waiting
on you, I don’t know the name to call, flight attendants, I’m always calling them stewardesses
and people tell me that’s wrong. What I find is, if you say to them, “Hey,
look…”, make up something, “Hey, I’m gluten intolerant. Do you have any cheese up in first class?”. “Oh yeah, we’ll get you some right away.”. They’ll just go run up there and grab you
whatever they have. They don’t care, they don’t mind. It’s easy to get around when you travel. I always say I’m the guy who opens up a can
of sardines on the plane, and nobody likes that guy. I’ve got patients that are pilots, and I’ve
asked them over the years, “Would there ever be a situation where somebody like me could
get in trouble, or be kicked off a plane, for opening up sardines?”. They reassure me that we’re all safe when
we’re doing that. It’s doable. It takes a little effort. It takes some planning, like you said. That being said, how easy is it to do some
hard boiled eggs, avocados travel really well. It’s just about planning, because if you’re
not planning, then you’re going to get airline food. You’re going to go through airport security,
you’re going to be hungry, and all there is some fast food, then you’re certainly in trouble,
right? You are. I live in dietary ketosis, so if I had to,
I could go 12-15 hours. I could go a whole day, and not even feel
hungry. If you look in every one of my bags, you’ll
see that there’s a Trader Joe’s, they’ll put coconut oil in these little packets. It looks like the little packets that you
get ketchup in, the little squeeze out… I have 4,5, or 6 of those in every bag. The other thing is, I carry these little one
ounce glass vials of olive oil. I throw them into everything. We have them in my wife’s purse, we have them
in the car, we have them everywhere. When we go to restaurants, you have good olive
oil. When you go on airplanes, if you’re that hungry… When I go kayaking out in the Pacific Ocean,
I just down olive oil. It’s easy. It’s often, when you’re dining out at restaurants,
even in some of the better places, they tend to cut the olive oil with canola, or some
other cheaper oil, under the premise that it helps to make it a little more palatable,
taste wise. Obviously, it cuts down the expense when you’re
using some kind of cheap oil. I love that strategy about bringing your own
oil to restaurants. Like you said, if you’re in need of a calorie
jump, what better way to do it than with olive oil, with coconut oil? I love those ideas. Good olive oil…I’m Italian, so like the
Greeks, we try to find the good stuff. There’s a book called “Extra Virginity”, that
your audience might want to go look at. That guy talks about what goes on in the olive
oil industry, and it’s nothing shy of what goes on in the cocaine industry, as far as
the way they cut it. They try to push it off as something it’s
not, and so on and so forth. It’s pretty amazing. You have a recommended olive oil on your website,
correct? Villa Capelli has been a sponsor of my show,
from almost the beginning. They became a sponsor because I used to talk
about their olive oil as if they were a sponsor, because it was so damn good. Paul Capelli was a big advertising guy here
in the United States. He cashed it all in, he moved to Italy, and
started an olive oil farm. It’s all the good stuff. It’s not cut, it’s 100%, and you taste it. You know it when you taste it, this is the
good stuff. The literature is so amazing, the benefits
of olive oil are so clear. All the research, whether it’s blood pressure,
lipids, inflammation, cancer…like you said, the literature also tells us that it’s the
quality stuff that makes a difference. It’s not just any variety, yet these low fat
gurus that tell us to avoid olive oil, and, therefore, olives, where do they get this
from? Where do they come up with this BS? I wish I knew! I’ve been in this business for almost 40 years,
and I wish I knew where it comes from. All the way through college, playing football,
even when I weighed 225 pounds, I was pretty ripped up and cut up. My waist was never more than 32 inches back
then, it’s 30 or 31 now, and I’m 55 years old. I think back, I ate olives like there’s no
tomorrow. I ate avocados like there was no tomorrow. I drank olive oil, I would pour it on everything. I would drink it down, never gained an ounce. It’s people who want to think that calorie
in and calorie out is actually possible. To believe that calorie in, calorie out are[inaudible
00:21:32], as some people like to call it, could work, you’re now saying that you can
run your car out of gas, and then just keep going down the road, without filling it up
again. If you want to use the whole idea of the laws
of thermodynamics, I’ll take your argument. Run your car out of gas, and get it to go
down the road. That’s what you’re asking me to do. Definitely. I think that, once again, the literature tells
us that the Mediterranean diet is the most studied, the most proven, and those Mediterranean
diet people, they’re sucking down olive oil like the average person would suck down a
McDonald’s milkshake. They’re eating it for breakfast, lunch, and
dinner. I’ve told this to patients over the years,
before you go to bed one night, drink a glass of olive oil. You will wake up the next day, you will weigh
less. Instead, have a bowl or two of cereal, then
the next day, you can just slap that right onto your rear end. You’re right, it’s so not calories in, calories
out. It’s so much more complex than that, but those
people that are using fat for fuel, they get lean quick. You want to see what Vinnie looks like, look
at the front cover of his book, the 8 pack that that guy’s sporting. Kudos to you, man. It’s funny, I was reading, because when you’re
nerdy like me, you read a lot of stuff. I was reading the other day, where Dr. Michael
Greger, big vegan guy, that kind of thing, he was explaining, was it Greger or was it
Garth Davis? They tweet at me all the time. That’s how I know that I’m starting to hurt
them, because they’re tweeting at me now. They used to tweet behind my back. They’re worried about me, finally. He was saying, science shows that carbohydrates
cannot convert to a long chain triglyceride, turned to a fat. It’s only used as an energy. It’s like, wow, that’s a boldfaced lie! They’re just doing bold faced lies. You’re absolutely right, Jack, if you eat
a bowl of cereal, or ice cream, or cake, or anything, it’s all the same thing to your
liver. Your liver is going to use a very, very tiny
bit of it to make sure you’re topped off for glycogen, and the rest of it is going to change
to a long chain triglyceride, which is a fat. As my good friend, Gary Taubes put it in his
second book, “Why We Get Fat and What to Do About It”, once you have a long chain triglyceride
slipping into your fat cell, your body does not want to break that down. It’s almost like bringing a bed into the bedroom,
and then setting it up. There’s no way you can get that bed out of
the bedroom without tearing it down again. That’s a long chain triglyceride. Once it’s in the cell, it wants to stay put. Your brain will actually think you’re starving. You can weigh 400 pounds, and your brain will
keep telling your body you’re starving, because it just does not want to use those calories. When insulin is that one way key, insulin
we think of as only just the glucose storage hormone, but actually, insulin is just a one
way key. It just shoves all those triglycerides inside
of those fat cells. When insulin levels are high, those triglycerides
cannot come out of the fat cells to get into the circulation and be utilized as energy. Some of the quotes from Michael Greger, and
some of those other vegan propagandists, it makes no scientific sense, and it is so harmful,
so dangerous, and totally not congruent with mother nature, and how humans have existed,
and all animals have existed for millions of years. I had one doctor on my show, I want to say,
about 2 or 3 months ago. She said, when the mikes went cold, she goes,
“Mikes off?”. I said, “Yeah, we’re done.”. She goes, “Can I ask you something?”, I go,
“Yeah, yeah.”. She goes, “How do you know?”. I said, “How do I know what?”. She goes, “How do you know what Michael Greger
and Garth Davis, Klapper, and all those guys… How do you know what they’re thinking?”. I said, “I’m just guessing at it, why?”. She goes, “Because they’re trying to figure
out how you know all this.”. I said, “You got to take me back a second. How do I know all what?”. She goes, “Well, on your podcast, you always
say that they know they’re lying, but they’re doing it because they believe the means justifies
the end.”. They think that, even though they’re lying,
they’ll say eating an egg is like smoking 5 cigarettes. They know that’s a lie. They just dropped that lie, boom. Here’s a bomb, we’ll just drop this lie. Then they’ll walk away, they’ll walk out of
the room, right? They can’t figure out how I know about them. I said, “Because no one in their right mind
would believe that.”. I know that they don’t believe it, they’re
basically shills for the vegans, the vegans are shills for PETA, the ethical treatment
of animals, a group that actually thinks it’s a good idea that we don’t even house pets. My blind and deaf jack Russell, that I’ve
been keeping alive for 3 years, they think that I’m enslaving that dog. I should open my door and let Topsy run out
on the street right now, and Topsy would be okay. That’s what PETA actually thinks. They have these guys who are shilling for
them, not to mention, Walter Willett, up at Harvard University, who’s lying left and right,
but he’s taking money from Unilever, from Always. You name it, he’s just taking millions. They put out these bullshit, can I curse on
your show? They put out these crappy epidemiological
studies, which means nothing, and they get it peer reviewed by their friends, who are
also on the take. It’s like a mafioso. I’m Italian, and I can’t even get by the amount
of mafioso that they deal with over at Harvard and Minnesota University, which is where Ancel
Keys is from. This is what I deal with all day long, and
it drives me nuts. They can’t figure out how this idiot Cajun
from bayou land, moves to Hollywood, and figured all this stuff out. I’m the guy who did figure it all out, so
they’re all in trouble. Now, I have a movie coming out, that’s going
to show these guys for what they are. Now I know why you’re America’s angriest trainer. I think it’s very easy to get angered by this
as well. I feel your pain when it comes to dealing
with these people. I assume we’re talking about eating meat,
we’re talking about free range, grass fed, ethically raised animals, wild seafood, we
love all that. Why can’t a vegan eat an oyster? Does an oyster have any more or less feelings
than a head of cabbage? Why can’t we eat an oyster, or a clam, or
a scallop? Why exclude those things? An oyster’s one of the healthiest foods going. Right, they would say, “Well, how do you know,
Jack? How do you know a mussel’s not feeling any
pain?”. How do I know that cabbage doesn’t feel pain? I don’t know, maybe they should eat nothing,
maybe they should just suck on air and see how far they get with that. You know that there are Air-itarians out there,
I’m not making that up. Maybe Michael Greger would become one of them,
and Neal Barnard. I know you’re an animal lover, we’re animal
lovers. We donate to animal charities and stuff like
that. What we’re talking about is, we’re talking
about the optimal way to health. If we’re talking about the optimal way to
health, there’s a way that we’ve done it for millions of years. We’ll finish up, and this is so awesome, you
and I can obviously talk forever. We’ll talk again, I hope sometime sooner rather
than later. Tell me about the documentary and where people
are going to be able to find it, and when’s it coming out? We do not have distribution on it yet. Obviously, a lot of people talking to us,
we’re going to take the best distribution deal we can get, because I’ve said, at the
end of the day, I will forego money to get it seen by more people. Whether that’s Hulu, or Netflix, or Amazon
Prime, any of these networks. It’s going to be on the network that’s going
to bring us the biggest group of people. I will forego making money, to make that happen. The movie’s called, “Fat: A Documentary”. We’ve collected close to $200,000 on it now,
and we’re still collecting money at Indiegogo, because we’re spending every dime on this
movie. It is not going to look like these crappy
movies you see, like “Cowspiracy”, “Forks Over Knives”, even some of the films you see
on our side of the street. This is a film. This is a movie, and it’s shot in high quality. We have a real director, an award winning
documentarian. Peter Pardini is doing this with me. We’ve interviewed everyone we’re going to
interview. We’re now in the stage of putting this movie
together. We’re in the edit booth every day, [inaudible
00:31:41] here, we’re back in the edit booth. That happens everyday until we’re done. We have so much incredible footage, and I’m
going to name off some of the people, but we have so much incredible footage, that we’re
actually thinking about making a second movie out of the air footage. That could be a movie as good as the move
we’re doing. I’m going to name just a few people that are
in it: Eric Westman, did I mention Eric Westman, Gary Taubes, Nina Teicholz, Bret Scher, Dave
Feldman, Ivor Cummins, Dr. Georgia Ede, my good friend, Dr. Drew Pinsky, is in it. Even the guy that started the Charlie Foundation,
is in it…Jim Abrahams. There’s more, those are ones on top my head
that I can name. These people brought the goods like you would
not believe. Listen, even if you just said you had Gary
Taubes, you got me to watch it for sure because Taubes, brilliant medical researcher, writer,
his books have been so revolutionary. That sounds like a fantastic, Eric Westman
of course, sounds like a fantastic… I’m sure Dr. Drew is going to be on there
just talking about the importance of fat and brain health, which is so.. He talked about it as an addiction, from an
addiction side, how people get into the religion of diet. I brought Drew in, almost like stunt casting,
because he’s a buddy of mine. I do his show all the time, and I host for
him when he’s away. I gotta ask Drew to be in it. Drew brought the goods. You were right, what you said about Gary Taubes. I could have made a movie, I could have called
it, “Gary and [crosstalk 00:33:41], nothing else, and that would have been the best movie
ever. No doubt. Some of the few people that are just bringing
the truth amongst all this other stuff. People ask me all the time, “Oh, did you see
“Forks Over Knives”? Did you see “Cowspiracy”? I’m like, I don’t have time for those propaganda
films. They’re aggravating, they’re untrue, they’re
unnatural. I just can’t watch it. Most of them are poorly made, on top of it. Kudos to you. I’m excited to see your documentary. That’s going to be very exciting. We’re planning on getting this one out, and
we’re planning on doing more, so I’m going to ask you on camera. Would you be willing to be in one of my documentaries
if we do continue this? Listen man, you and I are brothers in arms
on this one. We need to stay together on it, because this
is how the truth is going to get out there. Beautiful thing that Al Gore invented, called
the internet, and through the internet, we’re going to take it directly to the people. There’s so much, as you know, against us,
right? We’re trying to get this message out there,
that the big food industry, big agriculture, big pharma, they’re all in cahoots against
people like you and I. For us to band together, it’s really, really
important to get that truth out there. Thanks again for making the movie. Thank you for doing what you’re doing over
there. Jack, I need to get you back on my podcast
again real soon. Let me know when you’re ready. You got it, my friend. Thank you again, everybody. This is the Healthy Heart Show, Dr. Jack Wolfson,
special thanks to my guest, Vinnie Tortorich. Go check out his website. We’ll have his information in our show notes. Check out his book, and his upcoming documentary,
as well. Until next time, see ya.

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